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There's quite a bit to unpack here, and being an ostensibly straight man, I'll try to stay in my lane. But as someone who's grown up enjoying Japanese media, it feels weird to criticize FF16 for relegating its gay rep as "optional" and "not enough" when it's part of a main character's development within the main story.

Yeah, uh. Dion falls just shy of being a "main" party member, mostly because the game's party mechanics are about as shallow as NieR Replicant. You wouldn't say Kaine and Emil aren't main characters. He gets spoiler[the same endgame treatment as any of the other major characters, including a permanent spot in the hub area, and he's fricking playable for part of the final battle]! That's even more than Emil got. I may have joked before that the game could have gone harder with it in some areas, but overall I have no real notes. Well, maybe making him a dragoon was a little on the nose.

But if we really need to go there, Dion is certainly more than we've gotten, in some ways, but also not really anything new for FF. There's a (presumably) lesbian lady knight hanging out in the Wild Rose headquarters in Final Fantasy II, fantasizing about rescuing Hilda, as I rediscovered on my recent Pixel Remaster binge. Also, the Emperor is David freaking Bowie. Final Fantasy VII has Cloud learn the art of cross-dressing from humorously accurate and respectful (for the era) drag queens. Remake has Andrea. And that's without getting into the truly indiscriminate flirts like Lehko Habhoka from FFXI or Jornee from FF Dimensions II. Or how FFXIV has the franchise's first heroine-coded male character in G'raha Tia. To point out just a few of many, many highlights. It's good that people are finally starting to notice, but it's also clear that a lot of people only pretend to know what they're talking about on the subject, especially if they're trying to skew the narrative so that Final Fantasy is somehow behind the curve. I'm one of the bad gays, though, so please ignore me.

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The Oracle games have the wholly-unearned reputation of Nintendo trying to cash in on the Pokémon-inspired craze of having two "versions" of the same game

Been playing these games for like 22 years and have never heard this as a reputation. Lots of GB/C/GBA games had multiple versions in the late 90s-Early 00s; few were monster-collection themed. Pokemon just really renewed the use of link-cable features.

Regarding the fighting game input hullaballoo- I don't really care about simple vs "classic" input styles, and don't really think simple inputs have to be "balanced" against classic ones. Now, I'll admit, that comes from someone who struggles to consistently hit a wake-up DP in , Strive, but I view mastery as referring to knowing your options, and when to utlizing which of them rather than the ability to do a move in the first place. Especially with the old saw : "Just because you can doesn't mean you shoud." I can wake up reversal all day long, but if I get too predictable with it, my opponent's gonna fold me like fresh laundry. Execution is not the ideal concern.

I will say though, that I also don't think devs should focus on simplifying inputs. I don't think thats really the motivating factor for most players to pick up or drop a game. Aesthetics and content are likely to do a better job there.

Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Ryznen 7700

First I’ve heard of Ryznen

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but that's because you haven't beaten Minish Cap yet.

Come on it’s not my fault the final boss is some bullshit.

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Being summer, the game had an ocean-themed event, but fans in Korea were displeased with... the character Ishmael drawn in a wetsuit instead of a bikini.

And as this is going on “certain people” in the U.S. and Europe have been pitching a fit over Mortal Kombat 1 because much like 10 & 11 before them the female characters aren’t running around with their cleavage & thongs exposed which somehow correlates to the women being unattractive.

Nice to see gamers even other markets getting their feelings hurt over nonsense.

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or the dramatic trio of Yagyu, who mourns her belated sister and projects her feelings onto Hibari.

Isn’t Honoka apart of this trio?

wolf10 wrote:

Or how FFXIV has the franchise's first heroine-coded male character in G'raha Tia..

I'll admit I'm not sure what this term 'heroine-coded' is alluding to, but I'm unsure how it relates to the topic of gay characters. But if we're talking about FF14 then Hauchefaunt should probably be mentioned since he canonically is gay. Or at least bisexual if the player is female as not only does he flirt with the player character but also admires his shirtless subordinates training. At least in the Japanese version, but it was censored in the American localization and don't think they've ever revised it.

I think any discrepancies in attitude about gay characters can be chalked up to cultural difference in these kinds of situations. Western critics tend to prefer a more western approach to gay characters compared to Japanese writing. It's the reason why most yaoi and yuri are often criticized and labeled as 'bad representation' or harmful. They're clearly aiming and doing a different thing than what those western audiences want. Dion being a pretty boy that appeals to both female fans and gay men puts him in an awkward place compared to Alloy where most gamers seemed to say she wasn't very attractive or hot enough, so that gives Alloy more points for not being made to be a male sex object compared to Dion and other Japanese works like Senran Kagura games you mentioned.

Personally it's why I tend to prefer the Japanese style of design and writing. I prefer that style of gay men compared to the western examples we could name. I admit I do like my gay men to be pretty. I don't play many western games these days but I haven't seen or heard any gay characters in them I became particularly attached to.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

First I’ve heard of Ryznen

Please don't be so pedantic.

Rentwo wrote:

wolf10 wrote:

Or how FFXIV has the franchise's first heroine-coded male character in G'raha Tia..

I'll admit I'm not sure what this term 'heroine-coded' is alluding to, but I'm unsure how it relates to the topic of gay characters.

I mean, he's written like a typical FF love interest, in the vein of Aerith, Rinoa, or (especially) Yuna. Complete with proclaiming his love while in the middle of casting a spell that might save the world but will definitely kill him, while Amanda Achen croons in the background. He gets lots of scenes that would be unambiguous romantic chemistry moments in pretty much any other game. Coded like a heroine, in other words, to the point there will probably always be people complaining about the "gay catboy."

Rentwo wrote:

But if we're talking about FF14 then Hauchefaunt should probably be mentioned since he canonically is gay. Or at least bisexual if the player is female as not only does he flirt with the player character but also admires his shirtless subordinates training. At least in the Japanese version, but it was censored in the American localization and don't think they've ever revised it.

There are still mentions in English, but most of his dialogue is really toned down. JP!Haurchefant is in the gray area for me, personally, but mileage will vary. He's still not as bad as Valens van Varro, though, who more openly had a thing for abusing little boys. (So yes, CBU3 has also gotten it very wrong once or twice, too.)

But then there's the Eden storyline which is definitely not in any way a yuri remake (yurimake?) of FF8. Laughing

XIV on its own has done a lot in both directions.

Rentwo wrote:

It's the reason why most yaoi and yuri are often criticized and labeled as 'bad representation' or harmful. They're clearly aiming and doing a different thing than what those western audiences want.

Yeah, people do tend to run with "bad representation" and "harmful" as synonyms and attack the genres as a whole. BL and GL as a whole probably shouldn't be considered "good" representation, but there's nothing wrong with liking it, IMHO. It does rub me the wrong way when people put on airs that liking it somehow makes them a good person, though, but that's probably the only time the argument needs to be made at all.

FinalVentCard wrote:

Please don't be so pedantic.

Not trying to be but when you read a lot of articles on daily basis spelling errors become too hard not to take notice of. Even I have to edit my posts on here multiple times because of it. Which by then may be quoted with the errors still intact.

Din of Oracle of Seasons must have been my first Video Game Crush. I think she is the sole reason I prefer Dark Skin anime characters like Urd, Yoruichi and Tionishia when it comes to aesthetics. I too would love a Remake but I think there might be some rights issues in addition to what was said about it being a full price (I don't care I'll buy it).

Rentwo wrote:

It's the reason why most yaoi and yuri are often criticized and labeled as 'bad representation' or harmful. They're clearly aiming and doing a different thing than what those western audiences want.

Yeah, people do tend to run with "bad representation" and "harmful" as synonyms and attack the genres as a whole. BL and GL as a whole probably shouldn't be considered "good" representation, but there's nothing wrong with liking it, IMHO. It does rub me the wrong way when people put on airs that liking it somehow makes them a good person, though, but that's probably the only time the argument needs to be made at all.[/quote]

It shouldn't be wrong to hate GL or BL.
I mean, I was taught as a child homosexuality was bad, but then around middle school I saw the show that made me realize that gay people are people, too and just want to live like everyone else.
And that show is the one that I have my ANN profile pic for. I gave that show a huge ton of credit for opening my eyes at a young age and its one of the reasons why I love it to this day.

Rentwo wrote:

so that gives Alloy more points for not being made to be a male sex object compared to Dion and other Japanese works like Senran Kagura games you mentioned.

While we're having nuanced in-depth conversations on this topic, there's a lot to unpack in this statement too. Even the way the article mentions SK made me think about this. In what way is the content in SK "for men", when men's perspectives are not included in the work? We can assume by sheer population statistics that the game is "targeted" at straight men, but does the content at all suggest that women aren't invited to enjoy it? If so, why, and what does that say to women fans? Etc.

wolf10 wrote:

I mean, he's written like a typical FF love interest, in the vein of Aerith, Rinoa, or (especially) Yuna. Complete with proclaiming his love while in the middle of casting a spell that might save the world but will definitely kill him, while Amanda Achen croons in the background. He gets lots of scenes that would be unambiguous romantic chemistry moments in pretty much any other game. Coded like a heroine, in other words, to the point there will probably always be people complaining about the "gay catboy."

I don't want to argue with your head canon, but I think proclaiming G'raha's love as "unambiguously romantic" is a bit of a stretch. He's a huge nerd for history, and the player character happens to be a central part of the history making that happens in the game. If you'll recall his reaction to a certain other character when they first meet, it's also quite, uh, enthusiastic. I'm not saying you're necessarily "wrong" in reading him that way, but I feel that it's only one valid interpretation.

Last edited by Top Gun on Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Really psyched to see Oracle of Ages/Seasons finally make it to Switch Online (though they showed up in the GameBoy announcement trailer so we knew they'd get here at some point). I watched a neighbor play Ocarina of Time earlier, but Oracle of Ages was the very first Zelda game I owned and played. Both games are a blast, and using the link system to combine the two and unlock the true final boss remains a really cool mechanic. I just wish the Switch Online version enabled some way to streamline transferring the codes between the games. (I guess we're missing out on the Advance Shop too.)

Now I just continue to wish that Nintendo would go ahead and port Wind Waker/Twilight Princess HD to Switch, since they're just about the only Wii U titles of note still locked to that console. That way we'd get just about all of the feasible Zelda titles on Switch. I guess you could theoretically get A Link Between Worlds on there without too much trouble, but the DS games would be more complicated.

Bringing up the double standards going on with Dion is worth talking about. Aloy can potentially be queer but it's mostly relegated to player input, so that falls into the trap of "Schrodinger's diversity" that plagues a lot of narratives that claim to be inclusive but don't really commit. Meanwhile, Dion is canonically gay with a very complex and important role in the story (even if he's not playable). It's definitely food for thought.

In the meantime, I'll be delving into the Oracles games again.

varmintx wrote:

I don't want to argue with your head canon, but I think proclaiming G'raha's love as "unambiguously romantic" is a bit of a stretch.

Reread what I said. It wasn't so much a statement on G'raha as it was a jab at how many romances in FF games (and RPGs in general, Japanese or otherwise) tend to assume a heterosexist reading, where they actually aren't that well developed. He especially fits the pattern of Lion and Nashmeira from FFXI, who are supposed to be read as romantically interested (and actually referred to as "heroines" in a few places).

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